Mighty to save 2
My dear dear G.,
I appreciate your ‘observation’ or ‘comment’ on my text ‘Mighty to save’, and I just wish that there will be more of them on the way J.
On the other side I didn’t expect, though, that you will be the one who would ‘fail’ to understand my message and intention here, but it must be for some good and we will find it on our way, I am sure about it.
So, according to my perception you did ‘stumbled’ while answering my very simple question, namely, ‘is it possible’ or ‘is it not’, for those people who after the Earth trials end up in hell, to be reformed and changed on better (come to heaven) – EVER, to wit, ‘is it possible for them to cross from hell to heaven?’, which is something E.Swedenborg explicitly denies in all his books.
To understand that he denies that possibility it is not necessary to read all his works, it is enough to read what he stated for example in his ‘New Jerusalem and its Heavenly Doctrine – 239 (Whitehead)’: ‘The life of man cannot be changed after death. It then remains such as it had been. For the quality of man’s spirit is in every respect the same as that of his love, and infernal love can never transcribed into heavenly love, because they are opposite. This is meant by the words of Abraham to the rich man in hell:
Between us and you there is a great gulf; so that they which would pass to you cannot; neither can they pass to us from thence (Luke 16:26).
Hence it is evident that all who come into hell remain there to eternity; and they who come into heaven remain there to eternity.’
So, my very simple question to the group ‘New Earth’ was – ‘Are you agree with that’, and that ‘not from the doctrine as you can find in/learn from Swedenborgs writings but from your own general perception while dealing directly with the Word of God, which we all have and which reveals itself as a certain feeling in our heart and consciousness’ (this is true meaning behind my words ‘how that statement affect you personally’ – personally means as well ‘not biased by doctrine’; it appeared that most of the members of ‘New Earth’ group indeed DO NOT BELIEVE IN THEIR HEART THAT SWEDENBORG’S STATEMENT ABOUT DESTINY OF THOSE PEOPLE IS TRUE!).
So, on that very simple question you didn’t answered even though from your text I concluded that you did agree with me that man’s state or condition CAN be changed in after life, IF HE WISHES TO DO SO! Strange thing is that you firstly defended Swedenborgs (wrong) statement and than you quote something opposite to it, namely our Lords revelation as received by His prophet Jakob Lorber and written down in his ‘Bishop Martin – 119, 14 & 119, 20’!!
How ‘yes if they want’ from that text complements with ‘no chance at all’ (or ‘cannot be change’) as Swedenborg teaches I cannot fathom, and for me this is the ‘first’ time you stumble in your answer to my text ‘Mighty to save’.
I repeat once more, firstly, Swedenborg explicitly states that ‘ALL those who will end up in hell, will stay there FOREVER, because there is no POSSIBILITY FOR THEM TO CHANGE ANYMORE!’ Secondly, you are defending Swedenborg/his revelation in total but you contradict what he say/particular part of it with quotations from Lord’s direct revelation through Jakob Lorber where He plainly said that MAN CAN CHANGE HIS STATE/CONDITION IN AFTER LIFE IF HE WANTS, which means that THERE IS POSSIBILITY FOR EVERYONE IN HELL TO CHANGE, OF COURSE IF THEY WANT SO.
So, in my opinion your comment missed that crucial point, because answer required there was ‘yes’ or ‘no’ (or ‘they can’ or ‘they cannot’ change; ‘if they want’ belongs to ‘they can’ group of answers!; moreover, if you agree upon ‘yes, if they want’ than you must disagree with Swedenborg’s ‘no, no chance at all’!), but you didn’t answered it, or in another words, you answered it YESNO, which is not satisfactory (‘yes’ and ‘no’ are indeed separated with gulf which can never be crossed, which doesn’t mean that man cannot change his mind from ‘no’ to ‘yes’!).
What is true situation with ‘eternal damnation’ or ‘hell as place to dwell’ (and you should know that!) reveals the One who knows it best, namely, Jesus Christ Jehovah, Creator and Sustainer of the Worlds, Only God and our Heavenly Father:
“Since I am Myself Life Eternal, I can never have created beings destined for eternal death. A so-called punishment can then merely be a means in achieving the one main aim, never however a negative aim that as it were is inimical, and therefore there also can be no question of eternal punishment.” (as received by J.Lorber and written in his ‘Gifts of Heaven’ II 226, 7).”
“There has to be eternal judgement, eternal fire and eternal ‘death’, for the sake of those who have been created. But it does not follow that a spirit caught up in judgement has to remain imprisoned for the same time as this judgement in itself occupies – just as on earth prisoners are not sentenced for the life-span of the prison.” (‘Gifts of Heaven’ II 226, 10).”
“O you fools! Is there such a thing as a father with any love at all for his children who would incarcerate a child that has erred against his commandments for life, and what is more, have it subjected to corporal punishment every day, for as long as it lives? But if an earthly father would not do such a thing, and being human he is after all fundamentally bad, how much less so would the Heavenly Father do this, being eternal and purest love and goodness.” (as received by J.Lorber and written in his ‘Great Gospel of John VI 243:9’).”
“With all I have created, I could not possibly have more than one purpose in mind. Since I Myself am Eternal Life, I cannot ever have created beings destined for eternal death. Therefore, wherever it may occur, a so-called punishment can only be a means to a fundamental and principal end, not to an as it were diametrically opposed end. Therefore there can never be mention of an “eternal damnation”!
True, an “eternal death” is mentioned, which is an eternal, firm judgment, and this judgment arises from My eternal, immutable order. It is the so-called “fire of My wrath” or rather the “fire of the zeal of My will”, which naturally must remain forever thus immutable, or else everything created would suddenly be annihilated.
Whosoever lets himself be carried away by the world and its matter (which must of necessity be and remain under judgment, otherwise it were no “world”), is of course to be considered “lost” and “dead”, as long as he refuses to part with the matter under judgment. There must thus be an eternal judgment, and eternal fire and a so-called eternal death.
However, from this it does not follow that an imprisoned spirit under judgment must remain imprisoned for the whole duration of this judgment, just as little as on earth, in a secure prison built by you, the prisoners should be sentenced for the whole duration of the prison.
Are not, visible to everyone, prison and imprisonment two different things? The prison is and remains forever and the fire of My zeal must never go out, but the prisoners remain only in the prison until their conversion and betterment!
By the way, in the whole Scripture there is not one syllable of an eternal repudiation or condemnation of a spirit to be found, but only of an eternal condemnation of the counter-order as compared to My eternal order, which latter is essential because nothing could exist without it. Vice, as dis-order or counter-order, is truly condemned forever, but the one indulging in it only for as long as he is doing so. Thus there is in truth also an eternal hell, but no spirit who because of his vice would be condemned forever to hell, but only until his betterment!
To be sure, I did say to the Pharisees: “Therefore, you will be condemned all the more! – but never: Therefore, you will be condemned forever!” Do you now understand your so dangerous-looking scriptural texts? Or is there still something you fail to understand?”
Says the spirit: “O Lord, I have again understood quite well what you said. But there is a single point in Scriptures which I fail to completely comprehend. It is the “chasm” in the parable of the poor Lazarus and the rich man…”
The Lord: … “Volenti non fit iniuria; he who wills it thus, suffers no injustice! – As for the chasm, it means again the unbridgeable gulf between My freest order in the heavens and its diametrically opposed counter-order in hell, thus the incompatibility of order and disorder, not a forever locked gate for the one who is in it. Amen.
As received by J.Lorber and written in his book “From Hell to Heaven” (Guidance in the beyond of Robert Blum), Vol.2, Chap. 226/227
***
Second point in my text ‘Mighty to save’ was directed to the ‘means by which Omniscient and Omnipotent God in His Mercy for sure can arrange outside conditions for those who are for certain time unwilling to ‘obey’ and ‘change’ their behaviour/loves so they could and would, without disturbance of their free will, which means without compulsion, AT THE END change and repent AS OF THEMSELVES!
There, I believe you did not agree with me because you stayed simply on the fact that there are some who will say ‘no’ to the loving and forgiving hand of our Heavenly Father. You conclude that there everything ends and that He from His Mercy did not in His Omniscience & Omnipotence provided ‘HOUSES OF INSTRUCTION’ so that even those ‘hardest’ spirits can change, and all of that in accordance with His Gospel of Love which says that ‘IT IS WILL OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER THAT NOT EVEN ONE OF HIS SOULS SHOULD BE LOST (Matthew 18:14)!’
In so called ‘New Revelation’ is stated many times (and that is perfectly in accordance with Divine love and general perception of it we all have!!), and even plainly explained, that man CANNOT and will not stay in hell forever, even though if he ‘for some indefinite’ time has a wish to remain in his evils, or in another words, that Our Father in heaven has all means, unknown to us (here you are missing relation with main end in the view, sense of immense Fatherly love which directs or dwells in that end), to ‘arrange’ outside conditions in that manner that even ‘worst’ of the devils will at the end with his free will change and become better.
“Everything about a devil is fundamentally and utterly evil.” “If a devil were capable of genuine repentance, from the heart, he would not be a devil and would not be in hell. A devil therefore cannot ever reform from within, out of himself, but it is possible for this to happen over unimaginably long periods of time, through outside agencies.” “Because of this, the torments of the infernal spirits are always as though coming from outside …” (as received by J.Lorber and written in his book ‘The Great Gospel of John VII 93, 5-7’) “Much is impossible even for the wisest of men that nevertheless is possible for God, through His love. Do you believe Me?” (received by J.Lorber and written in his book ‘The Great Gospel of John VI 242, 14’).’
‘In most cases further development will proceed “somewhat slowly, but that does not matter, for there can be no question ever of a soul being wholly lost … And even if due to very great indifference it may have been completely swallowed up by the opposite pole/hell – which indeed would be a very bad thing – yet after time has run its cycle this soul will have to put up with being put through yet another trial of the flesh, on this earth or also on another, for there are innumerable ones in infinite space, – without knowing or even having an inkling that it has already once before gone through a trial of the flesh. Nor would such knowledge serve it, as it would merely cause the soul to relapse again into its original evil ways and so the second trial of life would be purely in vain and to no purpose.” (as received by J.Lorber and written down in his book ‘The Great Gospel of John V 232, 2’).’
‘In the great beyond, everything is harder and more troublesome than on earth, and for very many souls who have sunk too deep, away from My ordinance, it will take a length of time that in your terms is beyond imagining, until they shall have found the way to My eternal and unchanging order.” (as received by J.Lorber and written down in his book ‘The Great Gospel of John X 113, 2’)’
“But even for such souls that have condemned themselves, I have told you (the apostles) two comforting things, firstly in the parable of the Prodigal Son (!!!) and then in what I have told you, that in My Father’s House there are many dwelling places and to express Myself more clearly – very many houses of teaching and correction, where even the human devils who on earth are the most depraved, can be taught and made to mend their ways (!!!).” (as received by J.Lorber and written down in his book ‘The Great Gospel of John X 154, 10’)
If you observe those passages very carefully you will for sure recognize that option ‘they will never change’ is not acceptable to His immense Love and Mercy.
That should be enough for you to understand that our Heavenly Father has all means on His disposal to arrange outside conditions in such a way that even most depraved soul will, sooner or later, OUT OF HER FREE WILL realize that for her is much better and comfortable to ‘repent and to run toward her Fathers embrace’ than to stay in miserable and lamentable conditions of separation from Him. Following that, Swedenborg statement about those in hell who ‘can never ever be reformed’ is not true and must be changed in sermons of the New Jerusalem Church into correct statement, namely: ‘in some hard cases after (or ‘for us’) unimaginable long period of time’.
I didn’t say that ‘way back will be easy way’ (read Paul’s words from 1 Corinthians 3:11-14 where apostle says that ‘even those who build wrongly will be saved, but AS THROUGH FIRE!’), no, what I said, and now I am again repeating to you, is ‘that unto Lord every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to God at the end’ (Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; 2:10).
May love of our Lord
Jesus Christ Jehovah
Be always with you
Lorens
